電影《靈魂急轉彎》影評：【譯】主創訪談

‘Soul’ Filmmakers on That Big Emotional Moment, the Cat Conundrum, and More [Interview]

Posted on Friday, December 25th, 2020 byBen Pearson

https://www.slashfilm.com/soul-interview-pete-docter-kemp-powers-dana-murray/

【本文首發於《虹膜》公眾號】

作者：Ben Pearson

譯者：覃天

校對：易二三

來源：Slashfilm（2020年12月25日）

Soulmarks another step forward for Pixar into fascinating narrative storytelling that is not only meant for young children. In fact, this may be the least kid-centric movie they’ve made in quite some time.

《靈魂急轉彎》標誌著皮克斯又向前邁進了一步，帶領觀眾進入了引人入勝的敘事。這部電影不僅僅是為孩子們準備的。事實上，這可能是皮克斯在相當長一段時間內拍攝的、最不以兒童為中心的電影。

Don’t get me wrong – the movie is very good and has plenty of the typical Pixar qualities we’ve come to expect from that studio. But a film about a middle school band teacher who finally gets his big break in music, only to quickly fall into a manhole and be whisked away to another plane of existence to learn how souls work? That’s pretty damn ambitious, and it’s yet another example of how the studio often pushes beyond the most basic version of a story when one of their films is making its way through Pixar’s rigorous process of building, breaking down, and rebuilding a movie to get it right.

請不要誤會我的意思——這部電影非常棒，並且具有很多我們期待從皮克斯工作室那裡獲得的典型特質。但這部電影講述的是一位中學的樂隊老師終於在音樂上獲得了重大突破，卻旋即掉進了施工井中，被迅速帶到另一個存在的層面上，去學習靈魂是如何運作的？可以說，這部電影的野心十足。它也是製片廠將最普通的故事，生發出更多視角的又一個例子，這部電影經歷了皮克斯嚴格的組建、拆分和重組的過程，以使其變得正確。

A few weeks ago, we spoke withPete Docter(director/story and screenplay by),Kemp Powers(co-director/story and screenplay by), andDana Murray(producer) about the clash between creativity and pragmatism,Soul‘s excellent score, and the thought process behind a plot decision which temporarily sidelines the studio’s first lead Black character – a decision which I suspect will generate a lot of discussion in the days ahead.

This interview has been lightly edited for clarity and brevity. Warning: fullspoilersahead.

Before we really get into the meat of the interview, I noticed that Ryan Coogler was thanked in the movie’s credits. How did he contribute to this project?

幾週前，我們採訪了彼特·道格特（導演/故事和劇本），凱普·鮑爾斯（聯合導演/故事和劇本），以及戴娜·默里（製片人），我們談到了創造力和實用主義之間的衝突，《靈魂急轉彎》出色的配樂，以及皮克斯工作室第一次使用的黑人主角，背後涉及的情節決定的思維過程——我懷疑這一決定在未來幾天會引發很多的討論。

記者：在我們真正進入採訪的核心之前，我注意到瑞恩·庫格勒的名字出現在了電影的感謝字幕中。他對這個項目有何貢獻？

Dana:Yeah, he’s an Oakland guy, and we’re based in Emeryville. Being the friendly studio we are, we have a lot of space, and I think he was looking for a place to hide and write the films he’s working on. So we took advantage of the fact that he was around and asked him to take a look at the reels and we had a notes session with him, and he was really helpful. He’s a really nice guy.

戴娜·默里：是的，瑞恩·庫格勒來自加州的奧克蘭，而我們皮克斯工作室也在加州的埃默里維爾。由於我們是一個友好的工作室，並且我們也有很大的空間，我想他在尋找一個地方來隱藏和創作他正在拍攝的電影。所以我們利用了他在附近的便利條件，讓他看了一下影片的分本，和他進行了筆記會議，他真的很有幫助。他真的是個好人。

Cool. There’s a scene in the first half of the movie in which Joe revisits moments of his life that is quietly devastating, and near the end of the film, we see some of those same moments again, but through a different lens. Did you know from the start that that was going to be the 「classic Pixar」 scene that makes people cry?

記者：真棒。在電影的前半部分有一個場景，喬重溫了他生命中悄然走向毀滅性的時刻，在電影接近尾聲時，我們再次通過不同的鏡頭，看到了一些相同的時刻。你從一開始就知道那會是讓人流淚的「經典皮克斯」的場景嗎？

Pete:It was maybe the second or third pass – let me answer it this way: I knew from the beginning I wanted Joe to be able to have this epiphany that the small moments in his life were what it was about, and it felt right that that would be at the piano, the instrument of his passion. But exactly how that connected to anything else was a discovery later. I know we have that scene, Kemp, where he walks through his life and it’s pathetic, and I think we just boarded it straight, looking for pathetic moments. And maybe the third or fourth pass through, somebody had the idea of connecting those.

彼特·道格特：這個創意可能是第二次或第三次才得到通過——讓我這樣來回答你的問題：我從一開始就知道，我希望喬能夠有這樣的頓悟：那就是他生命中那些微小的時刻正是它的意義所在，我覺得那來自於鋼琴，這是讓他激情四射的樂器。但鋼琴與其他任何事物的確切聯繫，則是我們後來的發現。在電影中，有這樣一個場景，這是凱普·鮑爾斯的主意，喬走過他生活中的時刻，這充滿了悲傷。而我想我們不如直接去尋找那些可悲的時刻。也許在第三次或第四次決定時，有人提出了把它們連接在一起的想法。

Kemp:Yes. That’s what it was. Initially, it was this idea of a museum of your life, and it was comparing Joe’s failed life to that of a real mentor, which is all of these moments of success. And it was after several passes, like, 「Oh, what if all these failed moments, if you just look at them from a different perspective, are actually transcendent moments?」 Joe is unfairly judging his own life as not valuable, as not good, and when seen through 22’s eyes, it’s actually kind of amazing. In that period at the end when he’s at the piano, his first glimpses are actually her memories in his body. That’s what triggers this new look at his entire life going all the way back. Which, God knows, talk about notes sessions about 「Are people going to understand this?」, that was a lot of them.

凱普·鮑爾斯：的確如此。最初，這是一個關於你生活的博物館的想法，它將喬的失敗生活與一個真正的導師進行比較，這就是所有這些成功的時刻。在幾次通過之後，比如，「如果所有這些失敗的時刻，你從不同的角度來看，實際上都是超凡的時刻，那會怎麼樣？」喬不公平地認為他自己的生命沒有價值，並且不好，當通過「２２」的眼睛來看的時候，它們卻令人驚嘆。在他最後彈鋼琴的段落中，他第一眼看到的其實是她在他身體裡的記憶。這就觸發了他整個人生的新面貌。上帝知道，在筆記會議上談論「人們會理解這個嗎？」，許多都是和這個想法有關。

The score in that scene is particularly incredible. What kind of direction, if any, did you give Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross for creating the music for that big emotional sequence?

記者：這一幕的配樂非常精彩。如果有的話，你給特倫特·雷諾以及阿提喀斯·羅斯在創作這一幕中音樂的情感連續性上提出過什麼方向上的建議嗎？

Pete:They were pretty involved through the whole thing. They came up and would watch any major revisions we did to the storyboards, and we worked quite differently than we would traditionally. Usually, you’d basically lock picture and then bring somebody likeMichael Giacchinoor any of our great composers and it’s kind of post-scored. But in this case, they started giving us tracks early on. I think that particular section we were talking about an emptiness and a hollowness. We just kind of used some descriptive words to fill in – I mean, they’re watching the reels, they’re watching the storyboards, so we’re hoping the sequence kind of speaks for itself. But yeah, sort of empty failure and vacant nothingness was the feeling we were looking for.

彼特·道格特：他們的工作與整部影片緊密相關。他們會過來觀看我們對故事板所做的任何重大的修改，我們的工作方式與傳統截然不同。通常，你基本上不再會對影片進行改動，然後請來像邁克·吉亞奇諾（譯者注：《瘋狂動物城》，《尋夢環遊記》，《飛屋環遊記》的配樂）這樣的人，或者任何一位偉大的作曲家，這有點像後期配樂的效果。但在這種情況下，他們很早就開始給我們提供音軌的素材。我認為我們所說的那個特定的部分是空虛和空洞的。我們只是用了一些描述性的詞來填充——我的意思是，他們看了影片的分本和故事板，所以我們希望這個情感的連續能說明問題。但，是的，某種空洞的失敗和空虛正是我們在尋找的感覺。

Dana:It was really cool because Trent so related to how Joe felt after that concert. He’s like, 「I remember feeling that way, like ‘Once I play a stadium, I’m going to be good.’ But that didn’t fix me, or fix how I felt.」 So when he came back with that cue, we were all like, oh my God.

戴娜·默里：這真的很酷，因為特倫特·雷諾十分了解和貼近喬在那場演奏後的想法。他說：「我記得我有過那種感覺，就像『一旦我在體育場演奏過，我就會做得很好。』但這並沒有解決我的問題，也沒有解決我如何去感受的問題。」所以當特倫特帶著由這樣的想法創作出來的配樂給我們時，我們都在想，哦，天哪。

Kemp:Right, because he gave us like three or four to choose from, and we all unanimously agreed on the first listen. We were like, 「Whoa.」 I think you started crying, Pete. Not to blow up your spot, but you teared up, didn’t you?

特倫特·雷諾：是的，特倫特給了我們三到四個音樂小樣來選擇，我們全體一致同意我們第一次聽到的那一個。我們聽完的感受都是：「喔！」我想你聽到時流淚了，對嗎，彼得？你哭了出來。

Pete:Yeah, totally.

彼特·道格特：是的。的確如此。

Kemp:The first time he heard it, he was emotional.

凱普·鮑爾斯：當他第一次聽的時候，他的情緒十分激動。

One of the big ideas this movie addresses is the clash between creativity and pragmatism. As creative people yourselves, I’m sure you’ve probably wondered at some point if you should give it all up for something more stable and secure. Talk a little about the message you wanted to put into the world with this movie.

記者：這部電影講述的一個重要思想是創意和實用主義之間的衝突。作為有創造力的人，我相信你們可能在某個時候想過，你們是否應該放棄這一切，去尋找更穩定、更安全的東西。來談談你想通過這部電影向世界傳達的信息吧。

Pete:Pixar’s full of all of these people who succeeded in spite of their parents being like, 「You’re going to be a doctor!」 and they’re like, 「No, Mom, I’m an artist!」 My parents were artists, too, so I kind of cursed them, like, 「You didn’t give me somebody to fight against!」 They were actually super important and encouraging throughout my whole career, so I don’t really have that specific struggle the way I know a lot of people do. Kemp, I know you had some struggles.

彼特·道格特：皮克斯工作室到處都是這樣的人，他們成功了，儘管他們的父母對他們說：「你應該成為一名醫生！」他們則會說，「不，媽媽，我是個藝術家！」我的父母也是藝術家，所以我似乎有點受他們魔咒的影響，就像，「你沒有給我一個可以打敗的人！」我的父母實際上在我的整個職業生涯中，對我非常重要，並且鼓勵我，所以我並不像我知道的很多人那樣，經歷過那種掙扎。凱普，我知道你有過一些這樣的掙扎。

Kemp:I certainly had that struggle. No one though this was even a real job. So yeah, it’s been bizarre. This year, having a few movies coming out, I think my family doesn’t quite know what to make of it. Because it’s this thing that I’ve been doing all this time – and of course I’ve been a playwright, but plays are different. Plays run at a theater, and my family has gone to see my stuff at a theater. Butseeing Disney commercials and stuff like that, they’re like, 「Are you kidding me?」 I guess deep down in their minds, my mom might have thought that maybe I would end up doing something else, even at this age. She’s finally like, 「All right, that’s what Kemp does.」

凱普·鮑爾斯：我當然也有過這樣的掙扎。沒有人認為電影編劇是一份真正的工作。所以，是的，這是很奇怪的。今年有幾部我編劇的電影上映，我想我的家人不太知道該怎麼去看待它們。因為這就是我這段時間一直在做的事情——當然，我也是一名劇作家，但戲劇是不同的。戲劇在劇院上演，我的家人會去劇院看我的作品。但當看到迪士尼商業片之類的東西時，他們就會說，「你在跟我開玩笑嗎？」我想，在他們內心深處，我媽媽可能會想，即使到了這個年紀，我也可能會做些別的事情。她最後說，「好吧，這就是凱普在做的事。」

Dana:My parents were pretty encouraging, and I also joke that I was the third child and they were sort of like, 「Whatever! You seem fine!」

戴娜·默里：我的父母對我則十分鼓勵，當我還只有三歲時，他們就會對我說，「管它呢！你看上去真棒！」我經常會把這個經歷當做笑話來說。

There’s a scene where we see the various mentors that 22 has encountered during her time in The Great Before. There are a lot of famous historical figures there, but I think I spotted [Pixar writer] Joe Ranft [who died in 2005] was also included, which is such a wonderful tribute. Were there any other more personal choices on that wall that we might miss if we’re not looking for them?

記者：在電影中，我們可以看到一個場景：「２２」在「生之來處」的那段時間裡，遇到過許多不同的導師。其中也不乏許多歷史上有名的人物，我在裡面還發現了皮克斯的編劇喬·蘭福特（他於２００５年去世），這真是一個美好的致敬。在那面牆上，你們還選擇了其他一些我們無法見到，卻心懷掛念的人物嗎？

Pete:Yeah, we wanted a wall full of stickers. So there were plenty of chances for people to fill in their own. Another one for me wasJoe Grant, who was one of the great Disney story artists and development guys back in the ‘40s. He worked with Walt Disney. I got to know him when he was like 95 or something, and he was a great mentor to me. As well as the father of Frank Oz, this guy namedMike Oznowicz. He lived locally in Oakland, and we would meet him every weekend, and his was just a fantastic, full of life guy. And a bunch of other folks. Did you guys have anyone in there?

彼特·道格特：是的，我們想要一整面都是貼紙的牆。因此，人們就有很多來完善自己信息的機會了。另一個選擇對我來說是喬·格蘭特，他是１９４０年代迪士尼偉大的故事藝術家和開發人員之一。他曾與沃爾特·迪士尼合作。我認識他是在他９５歲左右的時候，他是我的良師益友。同時，我還想到了麥克·奧茲諾維奇——弗蘭克·奧茲（譯者注：美國演員，導演，監製和木偶師，曾參與過《芝麻街》，並在《星球大戰》中飾演尤達大師並為該角配音）的父親。他住在奧克蘭當地，我們每個週末都會見到他，他是一個非常棒、充滿活力的人。還有其他一群人。你們會想到一些人嗎？

Kemp:Archimedes was my big one, remember? I was like, 「Archimedes, please!」 because I was a little nerd for ancient Greek science as a kid.

凱普·鮑爾斯：阿基米德對我來說十分重要，記得嗎？我總會說，「幫幫我，阿基米德！」我還小的時候總是對古希臘時期的科學十分著迷。

Dana:As a producer, that wall became very painful, because it felt like we had all these names, and someone was always in my office and was like, 「You know, that person did this, this and this,」 and I’m like, 「Ahh!」

戴娜·默里：作為一名製片人，這面牆是十分痛苦的，因為這就像，我們提到所有這些名字，而其中有人總是待在我的辦公室，「你知道，有人做了那些，有人做了那些，」而我則是：「啊哦！」

Pete:「Thomas Jefferson. Well, out he goes!」

彼得·道格特：托馬斯·傑斐遜，他理應被記下來！

Dana:The Internet ruins everybody’s history.

戴娜·默里：網絡毀掉了我們所有人對歷史的認知。

When the decision was made to put this movie directly onto Disney+, was there ever any talk about pulling the Terry moment after the credits when he says, 「The movie’s over, go home」?

記者：當公司決定《靈魂急轉彎》直接在Disney+上線時，你們有沒有想過將特裡的那句「電影結束了，回家吧。」放在演職人員名單後面呢？

Pete:(laughs) No, we didn’t. Although I have thought about it. 「Wait a minute, everybody is home already!」

彼得·道格特：（笑）沒有，儘管我們想他說「稍等一下，所有人都應該回家啦！」

Kemp:Not in Korea. There are still certain countries–China – they’re going to see it in theaters.

凱普·鮑爾斯：現在有些國家，例如中國的觀眾仍然可以走進影院來看這部電影。

That’s true. Tell me about how the idea to put Joe’s soul in the cat came about and may have evolved over the process, because that feels like one of this movie’s big swings.

記者：是的。告訴我，把喬的靈魂放在貓身上的想法是如何產生的，也許這是你們在創作過程中產生的嗎？因為這就像是這部電影中最有力的一個旋律。

Kemp:I think that was [co-writer]Mike Jones’s idea, wasn’t it?

凱普·鮑爾斯：我想那是聯合編劇麥克·瓊斯的主意，對嗎？

Pete:Yeah, the first version of this was all in the You Seminar. So Joe, in order to get back, had to show 22 his life through those moments in the Hall of You. It ended up being very kind of talk and point, it was like, 「Here we are」 and we’d stop and watch a scene and discuss it, and then we’d move over here, and we’d stop and watch a scene and discuss it –it was not interactive at all. It didn’t allow the character’s to really change what they were watching. So Mike had this idea to bring him down and switch them so that Joe could see his own life from a different point of view instead of going back into his own life, because that’s, of course, what he wants. So on one level, it seems like, 「Oh, that works perfectly.」 On another, it was like, 「OK, I feel like I’ve seen this before,」 and as we did more research, unfortunately there are so few films featuring Black Americans, Black actors, in animation that it was kind of a cliche. So it was definitely something we were aware of. Beyond a cliche, it’s kind of seen as like, 「Oh, great. Finally we’re represented and then you take it away from us.」 Our hope was, in this particular way, we still get to represent Joe’s life. He’s not in his body, but we’re still seeing his body walk through all his spaces and interact with all the people that he does in his normal life. So it was a bit of a tricky thing to pull off. Cross our fingers.

彼得·道格特：是的，這個想法出現在電影最初的版本裡，在研討會上。喬為了回來，不得不在大廳裡通過那些時刻向「２２」展示他的生活。最後以非常友好的談話和觀點而結束，就像，「我們在這裡」這樣的話。我們會停下來看某一個場景，討論它，然後我們會搬到這裡，我們會停下來再看一個場景，然後再討論它——但根本就沒有互動。這並不允許角色真正改變他們正在觀看的內容。所以麥克有了這個想法，讓喬的靈魂掉入現實，把喬和「２２」的身體互換，這樣喬就可以從不同的角度來看待他自己的生活，而不是回到他自己的生活中，因為這當然是他想要的。因此，在某種程度上，這樣做會讓觀眾覺得，「哦，這真是完美的處理。」另一方面，它卻像是，「好吧，我覺得我以前看過這樣的電影。」隨著我們做了更多的研究，我們發現，不幸的是，以美國黑人和黑人演員為主角的動畫電影太少了，這有點老生常談。所以，我們肯定意識到了這一點。在以黑人演員為主角之外，它看起來就像是，「哦，太棒了。最後我們得到了代表，然後你們就把它從我們手中奪走了。」我們的希望是，通過這種特殊的方式，我們仍然可以代表喬的生活。他不在他的身體裡，但我們仍然看到他的身體在他所有的生活空間裡行走，與他平時做的所有人互動。所以這是一件有點難度去實現的事情。我們只能祈求一切順利、

Kemp:In a traditional body swap, you would have had Joe and 22 get separated, and 22 would do this whole series of things where she’s on her own living Joe’s life better than he is. Meanwhile, Joe –it was purposeful for us to keep them together. Because even though he was in the cat, he had a certain amount of control over his own body.

凱普·鮑爾斯：在傳統的身體交換中，你會讓喬和「２２」分開，「２２」自己作出一系列的舉動，過著比喬更好的生活。與此同時，喬——我們有目的地讓他們呆在一起。因為即使他的靈魂是在貓的身體裡，他對自己的身體也有一定的控制力。